Monday, April 14, 2014

The Collapse of the Probability Distribution


The Collapse of the Probability Distribution

(correspondence re. The Conscious Universe)

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From: E. D.
To: Arjun Janah
Sent: Wed, Mar 19, 2014 7:06 pm
Subject: RE: The Conscious Universe (not a poem)


Interesting perspective on the classic mind-body problem.

E.D.
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To: E. D.
Subject: Re: The Conscious Universe (not a poem)
From: Arjun Janah
CC: blank01; A.R.; P.B.
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2014 20:46:33 -0400

Sorry for the delayed response to this as well.

You might remember the layman's take on this,
which I write below as a dialog:

Philosopher: "What is mind?"
Scientist: "Doesn't matter."

Scientist: "What is matter?"
Philosopher: "Never mind."


;-) Arjun
 
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From: E.D.
To: Arjun Janah 
Sent: Sun, Apr 13, 2014 10:15 pm
Subject: RE: The Conscious Universe (not a poem)


Arjun,

Silly question from someone with a very limited knowledge of quantum physics:

The wave function doesn't collapse until an observation is made, right? Does the "observation" have to be made my a conscious human being or can it simply be a measuring instrument? How can the existence of the entire universe for all of its history depend on human consciousness? It doesn't seem to make any sense.

E.D.
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-----Original Message-----

From: Arjun Janah 

To: E.D.

Sent: Sun, Apr 13, 2014 10:53 pm
Subject: Re: The Conscious Universe (not a poem)


It doesn't (make sense).  So the universe and its history cannot depend on human consciousness. 

I do not understand this business. It seems to be an area of complete confusion among physicists. It could be because I am stupid or don't know enough or haven't thought about it enough. Or it could be that nobody really understands this, and they only pretend to or even believe they do, without really understanding it or accepting that they do not understand.

However, if you think of yourself as making a trajectory through various possible universes, then your trajectory (and its history and future) does depend (to stretch that word) on your observations -- if only to the extent that these are a record of the path you took.

Consider this. You are walking north, or, even better, sitting on a train traveling north. Looking out the window, you see the rest of the world moving south. Surely, this motion of the rest of the universe could not have been caused by your walking or the train's motion?  But it has, and is understandable as a relative motion.

I think that bringing quantum mechanics into this might be confusing. Consider the case of the solitary pawn, which I had elaborated on earlier.

Having observed the pawn at a particular location (square) at a particular time, you can then calculate, using the scheme I gave (a chance of 1/4 of hopping to any of the four squares around it, with diagonal moves prohibited), the probabilities for the pawn being at any other position (square) at any future (or, for that matter, past) time.  

 
This probability distribution, which is a function of position and time, would be the classical equivalent of a q.m. wave function (although of course not quite, as the q.m. wave function, at its simplest, has a complex-number value with a phase as well as a size, with the probability [density] being given by the size alone).

The probability distribution is a measure of your ignorance or knowledge of the movement of the pawn. It's what you expect, given whatever knowledge you had at the start, plus the dynamics (in this case the probability rules I gave for each hop) of the game. 

If you now were to take a look again at the board, and were to find the pawn at a particular square, that probability distribution you had constructed would immediately collapse, being replaced by a 1 at the square on which you find the pawn, and a zero everywhere else, for that instant of time, and a new distribution (over space and time, both future and past) that you would have to construct again.

Let me leave you to think about that. Notice that quantum mechanics and its (genuine) mysteries have nowhere been evoked.

You could replace yourself with a measuring instrument (a digital camera, say) and a computer hooked to it that has a program that allows it to calculate probability distributions. This is in fact entirely within the realm of current technological capability. But who/what would move the pawn?  We could use a random number generator. But it would be better to use something that I thought of as a school boy, but which might not have been realized -- to use fluctuations in the temperature to determine the move. Failing that, we can resort to the tetrahedral (four-sided) die I mentioned, shaking it well before each throw.

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From: Arjun Janah 
To: blank01; A.R.; P.B.;
Cc: V.K., E.D.
Sent: Sun, Apr 13, 2014 10:59 pm
Subject: Fwd: The Conscious Universe (not a poem)


F.I.Y. and possible input.




Arjun

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Dear E.D.,

I am forwarding your question and my reply to three physicist friends, plus to V.K.,, who introduced me to two of them, and who has an interest in many things.

Your question is by no means silly. Or of it is, then we are all silly, those of us who have thought about it a bit and been just as confounded as you were.

A q.m. wave function is clearly observer-dependent, just as the classical probability distribution I described earlier is. It is simply a measure (if one looks at the probability aspect alone) of one's knowledge or ignorance of the system under consideration. This knowledge or ignorance is affected, obviously, by any observation one makes on the system. Viewed in this way, the collapse (and reconstruction) of a q.m. wave function is simply a consequence of advances or losses of knowledge by you, the observer, about the system.  So what I am saying is that the q.m. wave function you are working with is your q.m. wave function of the system.

Let us go again to a spatial analogy.  If you take your usual seat at the library as your frame of reference, the position co-ordinates of a fly you are observing (neglecting your other duties temporarily) will have certain values over time, following its trajectory.  But they will have different values for a student sitting at a table in the library.  And if you were to move to what used to be the lending desk, the fly's co-ordinates as a function of time would have different values again. In this elementary example, everything is clear.

But in this case, no one would argue that the fly is in any way affected by the choice of observer or your shifting of view-points.

When we go to a probabilistic description of a system, however, the probability distributions are indeed affected by such choices or shifts, just as position co-ordinates were affected in our elementary spatial example. And this is where the headache starts. Do the wave functions or probability distributions describe an objective reality, independent of the observer, or one which is observer-dependent? I would vote for the latter, noting that our understanding of the word "reality" needs to be analyzed.

Arjun
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From: E.D. 
To: Arjun Janah
Sent: Mon, Apr 14, 2014 2:47 pm
Subject: RE: The Conscious Universe (not a poem)

Thanks Arjun, your examples clearly illustrate principles of probability. Of course, in classical probability, it is the observer's knowledge that changes suddenly with new information, not the reality itself, as in certain interpretations of qm. That's where the mind-bending paradox comes in.


E.D.
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From: Arjun Janah
To: E.D.
Sent: Mon, Apr 14, 2014 3:31 pm

Subject: RE: The Conscious Universe (not a poem)

You are right. But we will go into q,m. later. The collapse of the wave function, as you saw, has classical analogies. It is the disturbance of the system by the observation (as in Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) that separates q.m. from prior physics. So let us separate those two things in our minds, although of course, they are related.

Arjun
 

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